lupo-leboucher ([info]lupoleboucher) wrote,
@ 2008-05-15 12:22:00
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Entry tags:society

Mormons: America's Holy Warriors


The Mormons are one of those weird features of America which couldn't have existed anywhere else in the world. New religions are generally persecuted by the old ones, or wiped out as a general social menace. Mormonism was no different, and they, like many of the other new religions of that day were heavily persecuted. It was a very weird time in America; perhaps weirder than the 1960s. Mormon religion is one of the things which is over from those weird days, mostly because Brigham Young had the bright idea of moving them far away from everybody else so they could develop their religion in peace. Not so possible in other countries, but America has always been all about packing up and moving when the neighbors start to get on your nerves.



They're really kind of cool as religions go. For one thing, they're a real religion. They're serious. They believe in things which are completely insane like other religions, but the origins of their faith are so recent, there is no veil of time to cover up the crazy parts. This means, Mormon people really believe in stuff. This has the corollary that they're also serious about morality. Compare the average clean cut Mormon to the average slouchy cafeteria Catholic. The Mormon is a serious person. The Catholic might as well be an atheist. Mormons don't drink, smoke, jerk off or even drink coffee. That's pretty serious.



An interesting by-product of Mormon morality and doctrine: since many of them spend a year at missionary work, they end up knowing another language. They also are incredibly unlikely to do things like get hooked on booze or drugs, or have affairs, which makes them ideal candidates for diplomatic or the spy service. In fact, they are a large plurality in many such services. They are really America's Holy Warriors. I was horrified when I first heard about it, but with a bit of thought, I'm pretty happy we have our own home grown religion. Dudley Do-Rights are very useful people to have around. America is Mormon Holy Land, which means they're as loyal to our nation as Zionist Israelis are to theirs; pretty damn loyal. Very religious Christians have proved much less reliable in such work. They always have some other "higher authority" they feel they answer to. Since USA is land of Mormonism, Mormons make for very loyal citizens.


"Mormon next to a Yurt in Mongolia"


There are about 6 million Mormons in America, and about 14 million worldwide (remarkably similar to the number of Jews). Mormons keep in touch with their self reliant pioneer origins, unlike almost all modern Americans: part of their religion is having a year's worth of food for the family on hand. If there is an apocalypse, friendly Mormon neighbors would be very nice to have. Since they baptize their dead ancestors retroactively, Mormons are the only reason most Americans have any idea what their genealogy is. Mormon women graduate from college at higher rates than other kinds of Christian women. Mormons are seven times less likely to commit suicide than the average American. Mormons have a 6% divorce rate. Mormons reproduce, which means they are the future. Mormon inventors and scientists have made many important contributions to Science and Technology. Mormons have also kept alive the tradition of men wearing loud ties with short sleeved white shirts, which is the epic uniform of 1960s Nasa space scientists. If America ever falls apart, it will probably be Mormons who put it back together, as they have their shit together better than any other large group of people I can think of. I'd convert in a heartbeat if I could believe in stuff like that, because Mormons are what most people should be like.



South Park Mormon episode -it neatly sums up my beliefs about Mormons, as well as the beliefs of Mormons.

Mormons will help you to stop being a wanker

Mormons wear special underpants

Orson Scott Card is a very eloquent Mormon with a cool website.

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[info]commonreader
2008-05-15 08:27 pm UTC (link)

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[info]lupoleboucher
2008-05-15 09:03 pm UTC (link)
Does this mean you'll be populating planet Kolob with Catholics or something?

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[info]oronzo
2008-05-16 02:32 pm UTC (link)
where are these posters from,id like to see more of em

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[info]mporter
2008-05-16 02:03 am UTC (link)
A significant number of transhumanists are ex-Mormons. And these days, not even ex.

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[info]lupoleboucher
2008-05-16 03:55 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure what to make of that, but it does sort of fit in their religion better than transhumanism fits with Roman Catholicism.

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[info]modestproposals
2008-05-17 06:19 am UTC (link)
Evangelicals are very American.

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[info]phygelus
2008-05-17 04:45 pm UTC (link)
Mormons aren't evangelicals.

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[info]modestproposals
2008-05-18 12:30 am UTC (link)
That's my point, actually. Both are very American. Evangelicals didn't originate here, but they certainly flourished on this soil.

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bile, part 1
[info]phygelus
2008-05-17 05:22 pm UTC (link)
The root of your misconceptions here is that the active mormons you will meet in California are, 6 out of 7 or so, exactly the sort of salt of the earth you think they are. I'd rather hang out with that type of mormon than most people too.

The broader picture is rather different. Orson Scott Card famously will not move to mormon country, and while I won't speculate on his reasons, I wouldn't move back to mormon country myself. Also, while I enjoy most of his writing, check out his awful and condescending eulogy to Pope John Paul II sometime, which is a real mild form of the kind of mormon arrogance that gives me hives.

There's an old joke in mormon country: Do you know why you always take two mormons with you fishing? Because if you only take one, he'll drink all your beer.

Of the mormons who go on missions, most go here in the US. It's only a small fraction of 'em that go on foreign missions, and the fluency they achieve in foreign languages is exaggerated. Extremely few put in the 10-year plus effort after their mission to get the sort of native fluency that is most desired by intelligence services. Our open immigration policies pretty much devalue fluency in foreign languages for non-native speakers. There's just too many of the native speakers available. The LDS church doesn't send many missionaries to the parts of the world where the local languages are in the highest demand by intelligence, either.

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Re: bile, part 1
[info]lupoleboucher
2008-05-17 08:47 pm UTC (link)
Well, apparently you have more experience than I do. I know exactly 0 Mormons at present. The closest contact I have with Mormons at present: I used to work with a jewish guy who kept his wife and kids in Utah, because it's a great place to raise kids. Amusingly, he really dislikes the Mormons, not noticing somehow that the reason Utah is a good place to raise his kids is it has an awful lot of Mormons in it.

Yes, I know most Mormons do not go abroad, however, many do, and those make good spies. I used to be horrified; now I think it's kind of cool.

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bile, part 2
[info]phygelus
2008-05-17 05:22 pm UTC (link)

I gather that a lot of field agents have special operations backgrounds. Mormons are underrepresented in the military---it interferes with missionary service and also exposes them to too much drunken pirate immorality.

They do end up in intelligence and federal law enforcement, at the white-collar bureacratic level. Why I think this is so:

1. Many of them do actually follow their rules pretty strictly, and the ones that don't are good at compartmentalizing, which makes it relatively straightforward for them to get security clearances. Their neighbors and known associates won't spill dirt, basically.

2. The moralistic streak in their culture makes law enforcement---especially on people who aren't living their way---appealing.

3. The loony and recent-therefore-fairly-debunkable nature of their religion doesn't weed out nonbelievers, it selects for people who value social reinforcement over sanity. A lot of what they do in their services is get up and tell each other how much they believe in their church. This often takes the form of bizarre public confession: "testimony" about how, you know, they started drinking coffee and pretty soon their life went to hell. The UP SIDE here: it's good training to be a bureaucrat. Hence the occasional pundit during the primary noting things like "what is this elusive mormon quality that would make Romney a better Vice President than a President?"

4. They have a theological principle of subsidiarity of their beliefs to the rule of law that began to be emphasized when they got rid of polygamy and gave up the notion of Deseret (mormon "Dixie"). As you point out above, it makes them more reliable servants of the state than folks who believe, for example, that rights come from God, not government.

Brigham Young didn't lead them West because they were disgruntled with their neighbors: they got run out of everywhere else they settled down mostly because of their cultural (not theological, mind you) preoccupation with financial scams. Ponzi schemes regularly rip through mormon communities. Salt Lake City is often described as the nation's center of investment fraud. Utah and Nevada are getting a lot of press for mortgage fraud lately, too.

When I was growing up in Idaho Falls, we heard a lot about how TV was invented nearby in Rexburg. They barely mentioned Philo or much of his biography, because PTF was not an observant mormon and infamously had a drinking problem. The tendency for my elementary school teachers was practically to credit his high school teacher as the co-inventor.

Browning was more the sort you're praising here, as the son of original mormon pioneers, but I notice his biographies tend not to discuss his church life much. Fun fact: the first airport in Idaho Falls was built by Browning heirs, one of whose airplanes (a souped up P-51) held the air speed record for years.

The odds are your Mormon neighbor won't share much with you in the apocalypse unless you're ready to convert.

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Re: bile, part 2
[info]lupoleboucher
2008-05-17 08:54 pm UTC (link)
I won't argue with any of this, though you are making it sound like it is a bad thing. I strongly admire the type of gaping credulity that leads to successful Ponzi schemes. It's a sign of a sort of innocence that is mostly gone in modern American culture. It's a sign of deep niceness and trust in your fellow man: a sign of strong community. That's what I like most about Mormons, and also, Koreans. The wholesome white bread niceness. Obviously, as an urban degenerate, I voted with my feet, but I can see the attraction and utility in having a subculture like this in America.

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Re: bile, part 2
[info]phygelus
2008-05-17 11:52 pm UTC (link)
It's not credulity (cf the excellent P.J. O'Rourke essay on Albania), it's greed and pride. The deadly sins are weaknesses, after all. On top of that, they're the perpetrators, too. There's probably some angle like the Albanians thinking the ponzi schemes had to be funding actually profitable illegal businesses, in a more apparently wholesome version. Like they think it's outsiders getting ripped off or something.

My intent was not to make it sound like a bad thing but to be tempered.
There are aspects to mormon culture that are admirable but on the whole it's a pretty creepy subculture.

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Re: bile, part 2
[info]lupoleboucher
2008-05-19 05:30 pm UTC (link)
Well, it's nice to see greed and pride expressed in such a naive fashion is all I'm saying. I'd never say they don't have the standard issue human weaknesses: I just think they keep them in check better, or at least much more interestingly than the average slob. The average pigfucker grovels before his moral failings; the average Mormon makes an effort at fighting his moral failings, and does a fair job of it, really. One of the problems with people like us (aka atheist rationalists): we're always looking for the many ways in which silly theists are big hypocrites. Yeah, all right: they're hypocrites, but they're actually doing pretty well, all things considered. Hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue after all.

I'm sure the reality is creepy: my exposure to such gave me at least as much the creeps as the Jehovas Witlesses, but I still admire the Mormons for their accomplishments and what they contribute to the commonwealth.

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